The Purpose of PCT

[GenericDude]

Hi everyone, first post.

Before I posted here, I made sure to read as much as I could about post cycle therapy. I found quite a bit about the various drugs and their effects by reading the appropriate "Steroid Profiles" articles, assuming that those are accurate of course. I learned still more by reading a couple research papers about them namely the one about Aromasin in 25mg and 50mg daily doses and another about Aromasin as an adjuvant therapy following Nolvadex for a few years.

What is clear to me is the immediate effects of those drugs on estrogen levels and estrogen effects, testosterone levels and implicitly testosterone effects. This means as long as I took the drugs, for example, I would experience their effects and once I stopped taking them, the various hormones it affected would return to their homeostatic-controlled levels. But in my understanding the primary advantage of taking those PCT drugs would be to accelerate recovery following a testosterone cycle.

What is not clear to me is if by taking the drugs for 30 days let's say, these same homeostatic-controlled levels would be permanently changed by the drugs and once I quit taking them they'd be to a higher new level. What I want to know is if the drugs act in a permanent fashion to the systems that they affect. What can I expect? If I'm not coming off a test cycle, what can Aromasin or Proviron do for me for example? Would it be preferable to start with a test cycle to do whatever needs to be done, like losing a bit of fat let's say, then do a standard PCT?

I want to find out what I must do to get where I want. I don't particularly want to build muscle but I do want to shed a bit of fat, about 15lbs. I want to stay at a lower weight as well once that fat is gone. I want to add to my recuperative capacity. If you think oh that's not much and it should be easy why don't you go on a diet, well think again. If it was working the traditional way, would I be here you think? Anyway, I've already gone from 220 down to 165 once just be cutting the carbs. But now I'm back up to about 180 and it certainly looks like I gained back some fat, at least that's what people tell me when they see me. I didn't add back the carbs to my diet so I don't think it's that. Instead I think there's something else going on and I'd like to do something about it.

In my case, I'm looking at PCT as an alternative to TRT. If I can get where I want just by doing PCT for whatever length I need, then that's what I prefer. But if I must do a test cycle or several even, then that's what I'll do. Do what I must. If I had the cash, I'd go with HGH. I'm on a budget and I want the best result I can get for it.

[masswithclass]

Welcome to SW brother. Good to see you did some research. I would suggest the test cycle and run aromasin with it at 25mg ED. Post an average day's diet for us to take a look at.

[GenericDude]

My diet is mostly meat, cheese and berries. In low carb circles this is called VLC for Very Low Carb. Total calories is anywhere from 2000 to 3000 per day depending on how active I am (then how hungry I become according to that activity). Fat % by weight is about 20 to 50 % depending on how hungry for fat I am at the time. Protein % by weight is whatever it comes out to once I decided how much fat to eat. Carbs by weight is always below 20g per day.

Supplements I take daily:
8000+ IU vitamin D
1000+ mg omega 3
5000+ IU vitamin A cod liver oil
1 standard multi
1000+ mg vitamin C
1300+ mg iodine

You suggest a test cycle with concurrent 25mg a-sin ED. What kind of fat loss rate can I expect from let's say 500mg test/week?

[masswithclass]

The test is not going to shed the fat. I would personally adjust the diet a bit by controlling your protein intake better and lowering your fat intake. That is just my opinion. Good work on the carbs. How is your energy level? Maybe the other guys have another approach for you.

[GenericDude]

Why would the test not shed the fat? Doesn't it act directly on fat cells? Estrogen does, why not test? Anyway, if I eat less fat, I'd have to increase protein. There's only so far I can go before I get into toxic range for the protein. And the way I understand it, what controls fat storage is hormones, not calories. At least within the range of calories I eat 2000-3000. If I wanted to grow fat on that kind of diet, I'd have to eat something like 5000 calories per day and even then I don't think I'd grow that much fat. And if there was nothing wrong with me, I'd have to eat 5000 calories per day just to put on a little weight and it would be very hard to maintain that weight because once I got back to a normal diet of 2000 calories per day, the weight would just drop to normal in no time. Think about it, there's no reason 2000 calories per day would make me fat unless there was something wrong with the hormones that control fat tissue. No I think my hormones are out of whak and I want to fix that.

See here:
Why Are Thin People Not Fat? | Watch Online For Free | Documentary-Log.com
Obviously, there's nothing wrong with their hormones.

[masswithclass]

Sorry, I don't click on links. Anyway, that was just my opinion based on my experience. How is your way working out for you? Also, if your hormones are jacked up, go to the doc so he can get you straight. Maybe there is a medical reason why your hormones are jacked. How old are you?

[GenericDude]

41. My energy level is fine on that diet. It drops to lethargic level if I eat significantly less like 1000 kcal per day for example. I didn't check with a doctor yet. But obviously there is something wrong with my hormones or I would be able to shed the fat easily with that diet even at that calorie level. From what I know of the conventional medical therapy with test, it's a rest-of-your-life type thing where I get a weekly injection of about 200mg and that's it. No anti-estrogen, no anti-ball shrink, no actual return to proper function, no preventative measure whatever, just some test and endure whatever side effects it comes with. But maybe I should trust my local doctor to understand what I want and get him to prescribe me what I want and not what he's obligated to.

My way ain't working and that's why I'm here.

[masswithclass]

If your hormones are jacked like you think, the doc will prescribe something. A blood test would be a good start to know where you stand naturally. Good luck bro.

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by masswithclass71

If your hormones are jacked like you think, the doc will prescribe something. A blood test would be a good start to know where you stand naturally. Good luck bro.

Bump this, get to an endocrinologist and get tested. Age plays as big a factor in this as anything else. Assuming that the normal inputs will elicit the same results as they have before is a mistake. Metabolism slows dramatically at around 40 years for most people and it takes tremendous effort to change.

The MD has the answers for you, best of luck and let us know how things progress for you.

[GenericDude]

Thanks for the advice. What about the other questions, the MD sure doesn't have the answers for those? I mean, having myself checked is fine but it doesn't tell me shit about what I asked.

[masswithclass]

Originally Posted by GenericDude

Thanks for the advice. What about the other questions, the MD sure doesn't have the answers for those? I mean, having myself checked is fine but it doesn't tell me shit about what I asked.

My doc prescribes me everything you listed. What other questions are outstanding? Also, if you want guys to continue to help you, probably a humbler approach might get you more help rather than you demanding it as if it is owed to you. We are just guys like you that pay for a membership and share experiences to get a better knowledge of our recreation.

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by masswithclass71

My doc prescribes me everything you listed. What other questions are outstanding? Also, if you want guys to continue to help you, probably a humbler approach might get you more help rather than you demanding it as if it is owed to you. We are just guys like you that pay for a membership and share experiences to get a better knowledge of our recreation.

Bump this. Get professional advice first then the vets will know what you're dealing w/and can chime in with ideas/comments.

[GenericDude]

I promise, my ego was left at the door the moment I signed on here.

Thanks again for the advice. It just dawned on me, the first advice I got was to go with a test cycle combined with 25mg a-sin ED. I got this advice sight unseen no justification no explanation. Then I asked what kind of fat loss I could get with 500mg test and I got the answer that test was not effective for fat loss. This means the advice was inappropriate. Now the advice is to seek professional help then talk to the vets. Which is it, go with test + a-sin outright without further figuring out or go the safe route and ask my doctor what to do? Also, why should I go with your advice blindly either way? I mean, are you going to follow advice blindly if I gave you some advice about diet for example? I hope not. But would you consider it if I provided some background to the advice in the form of external links so that you could make up your own mind on it?

I agree, we're all guys like you who paid for a membership to share experiences and to get a better understanding of the subject.

My apology, it seems that my original post was not clear enough. I will correct the situation promptly. I want to know what happens to my hormones when I take 25mg aromasin daily for 30 days during the period and after the period. I want to know if the effects of aromasin on testosterone is merely transient while taking the drug or if the effects last long after I've ceased taking the drug. I think they are legitimate questions that in my search here and in other forums hasn't gotten me an answer yet. What I'm asking is assumed in the drugs' descriptions. For example, the explicit purpose of PCT drugs is to recover natural testosterone production. But the implied mechanism is that somehow natural testosterone production will end up higher than before PCT and perhaps higher than normal, i.e. the effects will be permanent. That's what I want to know with my questions. There's only so much I can learn by reading. Especially considering that nobody thought to ask those questions I'm asking now. I realize that it's possible that nobody knows the answers yet maybe because the research on this specific aspect hasn't been done yet. And this is partly why I'm asking them now.

What can I expect from PCT as an alternative to TRT? Must I take the drugs continuously to get ongoing benefits? Or is there some kind of permanent effect I can count on after some point let's say 30 days? I don't want to gain muscle, I want to shed fat. I tried the diet and exercise way but I've reached the limit of what I can do there as far as I know. I came here to ask about the alternatives and I think on its own my questions are proof enough of my humility.

I'm just rewording in the hopes that my questions are now more clear and will finally yield acceptable answers.

[Chal]

Originally Posted by GenericDude

I promise, my ego was left at the door the moment I signed on here.

Thanks again for the advice. It just dawned on me, the first advice I got was to go with a test cycle combined with 25mg a-sin ED. I got this advice sight unseen no justification no explanation. Then I asked what kind of fat loss I could get with 500mg test and I got the answer that test was not effective for fat loss. This means the advice was inappropriate. Now the advice is to seek professional help then talk to the vets. Which is it, go with test + a-sin outright without further figuring out or go the safe route and ask my doctor what to do? Also, why should I go with your advice blindly either way? I mean, are you going to follow advice blindly if I gave you some advice about diet for example? I hope not. But would you consider it if I provided some background to the advice in the form of external links so that you could make up your own mind on it?

I agree, we're all guys like you who paid for a membership to share experiences and to get a better understanding of the subject.

My apology, it seems that my original post was not clear enough. I will correct the situation promptly. I want to know what happens to my hormones when I take 25mg aromasin daily for 30 days during the period and after the period. I want to know if the effects of aromasin on testosterone is merely transient while taking the drug or if the effects last long after I've ceased taking the drug. I think they are legitimate questions that in my search here and in other forums hasn't gotten me an answer yet. What I'm asking is assumed in the drugs' descriptions. For example, the explicit purpose of PCT drugs is to recover natural testosterone production. But the implied mechanism is that somehow natural testosterone production will end up higher than before PCT and perhaps higher than normal, i.e. the effects will be permanent. That's what I want to know with my questions. There's only so much I can learn by reading. Especially considering that nobody thought to ask those questions I'm asking now. I realize that it's possible that nobody knows the answers yet maybe because the research on this specific aspect hasn't been done yet. And this is partly why I'm asking them now.

What can I expect from PCT as an alternative to TRT? Must I take the drugs continuously to get ongoing benefits? Or is there some kind of permanent effect I can count on after some point let's say 30 days? I don't want to gain muscle, I want to shed fat. I tried the diet and exercise way but I've reached the limit of what I can do there as far as I know. I came here to ask about the alternatives and I think on its own my questions are proof enough of my humility.

I'm just rewording in the hopes that my questions are now more clear and will finally yield acceptable answers.

First of all let me say that what you are assuming is completely wrong. It is obvious you don't know shit. Raising your test levels using pct drugs will not magically melt your fat ass off. You are over 40 and your body doesn't want to throw off bf like it used to. Your answer lies in a flawless diet mate. If you use AAS chances are you will get fatter homey. All that book knowledge you got don't mean shit when you start playin with hormones. Trust me on that one. If you are going to use AAS then I suggest you stick around and learn from the vets. That's how medicine works. You are not as humble as you think you are either. It's humility ego...Oh I'm so humble.. You ramble on clueless about bullshit and it makes me wanna puke!

[GenericDude]

Originally Posted by Chal

First of all let me say that what you are assuming is completely wrong. It is obvious you don't know shit. Raising your test levels using pct drugs will not magically melt your fat ass off. You are over 40 and your body doesn't want to throw off bf like it used to. Your answer lies in a flawless diet mate. If you use AAS chances are you will get fatter homey. All that book knowledge you got don't mean shit when you start playin with hormones. Trust me on that one. If you are going to use AAS then I suggest you stick around and learn from the vets. That's how medicine works. You are not as humble as you think you are either. It's humility ego...Oh I'm so humble.. You ramble on clueless about bullshit and it makes me wanna puke!

What am I assuming? What's a flawless diet? What shit don't I know? How does test cause fat storage? Why should I trust some guy on the internet? How do you know how medicine works, are you a doctor of some kind? What's the bullshit you refer to? Please my good man, I'm here to learn even if you're not here to teach me sweet fuck all.

Is that the kind of attitude I should expect from this forum's members? Or is it just you?

Take your flame and shove it.

Seriously, do you really think that I am now more receptive to any advice coming from you after that crap you threw at me?

[WetWorks]

sense your over 40 you definitely need Test and HGH for sure. your diet makes it a lot easier to lose the fat if your on a ketosis diet. ketosis helps you keep your muscle and lose the fat. the more muscle you have the easier it is to lose the fat.

[GenericDude]

It just occurred to me that the forum owner wouldn't be too pleased to hear that new members are greeted with flames instead of honest attempts to provide answers. Think about it for a moment. I ask genuine questions and I get beat down. How does that look to the guy who's thinking about giving the forum owner money? Maybe he won't give him money. Maybe he'll go elsewhere and give his money to somebody else. Just because they read this thread where a guy asked questions and got flamed for an answer. Now think about it harder. What if this was your forum?

If you ain't got the answers I'm looking for, why the fuck do you think I want to hear about the hate you got inside instead? Do you think flaming me is a good substitute for the answers you don't have? How smart do you now appear in my eyes? I know you don't give a shit about what I think but think about it some more, how smart do you now appear to everybody who reads your crap? Do you think you now look smarter or dumber? No wait, if somebody else pulled the same crap on you, how smart would he be in your eyes then?

Do the smart thing, don't crap in your own front lawn.

edit this post was intended for Chal.

[GenericDude]

Originally Posted by WetWorks

sense your over 40 you definitely need Test and HGH for sure. your diet makes it a lot easier to lose the fat if your on a ketosis diet. ketosis helps you keep your muscle and lose the fat. the more muscle you have the easier it is to lose the fat.

If I had the cash, I would go with HGH right now and only HGH. I don't need bigger muscles, I need to shed the fat and then stay lean. I agree about the ketosis, that's partly why I cut the carbs to such a low level. It worked up to a point and I got down to about 165 or something just with diet and some heavy lifting. If I must do a test cycle, then that's what I'll do but I want to look at the alternatives before I go down that route. I already did the diet and exercise thing and I'm at the limit of what it can do for me. I'm also looking at other things like T3, ECA, albut, etc. But like I said I'm on a budget and I want to get the best result possible for it.

I stress that I don't want to grow bigger muscle, I want to shed fat. What I mean is that I am about as strong as I need to be for what I do but I'm just too fat.

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by WetWorks

sense your over 40 you definitely need Test and HGH for sure. your diet makes it a lot easier to lose the fat if your on a ketosis diet. ketosis helps you keep your muscle and lose the fat. the more muscle you have the easier it is to lose the fat.

Bump this. Do this after you get your blood work done. You got a straight answer from a knowledgeable vet, WW.

[WetWorks]

Originally Posted by GenericDude

If I had the cash, I would go with HGH right now and only HGH. I don't need bigger muscles, I need to shed the fat and then stay lean. I agree about the ketosis, that's partly why I cut the carbs to such a low level. It worked up to a point and I got down to about 165 or something just with diet and some heavy lifting. If I must do a test cycle, then that's what I'll do but I want to look at the alternatives before I go down that route. I already did the diet and exercise thing and I'm at the limit of what it can do for me. I'm also looking at other things like T3, ECA, albut, etc. But like I said I'm on a budget and I want to get the best result possible for it.

I stress that I don't want to grow bigger muscle, I want to shed fat. What I mean is that I am about as strong as I need to be for what I do but I'm just too fat.

Test is a natural hormone you lose to age. once it starts decreasing is when your body changes, so Test is a must. you have to eat big to get big muscles, so that shouldn't be a worry for you. Test and Aromasin if you want a drier look once you get to size you want to be.

[GenericDude]

Originally Posted by cookiedough

Bump this. Do this after you get your blood work done. You got a straight answer from a knowledgeable vet, WW.

Yeah I figured a vet would chime in at some point. For the blood work, I don't see a compelling reason to go for it at the moment. I mean I'm going to use some form of drug therapy whether I get it done or not. That's already decided. Anyway what's the blood work going to tell me, that my test level is low? What is not decided yet is what drugs I will use to reach my goals. And in order to make a decision on this I still have some questions about the drugs that I am interested in.

[WetWorks]

another thing to take into consideration. you don't need PCT once you start TRT. TRT is what you need to be focused on.

[GenericDude]

Originally Posted by WetWorks

Test is a natural hormone you lose to age. once it starts decreasing is when your body changes, so Test is a must. you have to eat big to get big muscles, so that shouldn't be a worry for you. Test and Aromasin if you want a drier look once you get to size you want to be.

Ah that's interesting. You're right I don't eat that much. Do you mean there's going to be less water retention with the lower estrogen from aromasin? I hadn't thought of that. Less water means lower weight and what I do includes a weight restriction so that's good. This gets me thinking, let's say my budget doesn't allow for test right now, would aromasin alone get me the same result about water retention? Cuz if I can get rid of just a few pounds like that it'd be a good start.

I'm assuming that I'd have to repeat this therapy every once in a while because the effects won't last forever and age will just catch up with me. Is that right? I was planning for that anyway.

[GenericDude]

Originally Posted by WetWorks

another thing to take into consideration. you don't need PCT once you start TRT. TRT is what you need to be focused on.

Right but then that's a rest-of-my-life type deal and I'd like to avoid that if I could. BTW, thanks WW.

[WetWorks]

[QUOTE=GenericDude;91134]Right but then that's a rest-of-my-life type deal and I'd like to avoid that if I could. BTW, thanks WW.[/QUOTE


its not if your low at your age, cause your Test is low and will never get better without TRT. I'm not trying to convence you to take Test. I'm just letting you know the reality of life. thats why people age, cause they're hormone decrease and causes the body to not work at peek performance.