HCG During Cycle, Compelling Article

[cookiedough]

I've been researching HCG over the last few days and this is one of the best articles I've found thus far. Read through the technical stuff b/c it sets the foundation for the premise. For the impatient reader: scroll down to the bold type at the end for re-cap & also see post #2. I've only included the HCG section of this article. There are two more sections and complete references/footnotes if anyone's interested I'll send the link. Anyway, Here ya' go:

HCG to boost natural Testosterone levels – PCT latest research
Everything That’s Wrong With Your PCT by Eric M. Potratz

In the world of steroid users, it has become mandatory to follow post cycle therapy (PCT) upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had great success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the major problems with popular PCT protocols and clarify exactly how we should use the items at our disposal for optimum recovery from AAS. Three main topics will be covered in this article:

- HCG on cycle — I will show you the best way to use HCG, which will protect your “testicular real-estate”, and prime your HPTA for the fastest and most complete recovery possible.

- HCG unraveled

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads.1 LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline.



The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.


Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu.2,11 (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won?t regain full testicular function.

To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-AAS cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size.7 Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.6

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn?t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.

Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)


Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle.

Source: Eric M. Potratz

[cookiedough]

Here's a similar post from another board suggesting similar HCG dosing schedule:

Recommended Dosing

"HCG is best used in small frequent doses throughout the cycle and
not during Post Cycle Therapy. I recommend HCG treatment begin
during the second week of a cycle and end just before PCT starts. (This is the primary difference to the Eric M. Potratz article above)
The dose one needs varies and can be adjusted mid cycle if
necessary. Because leptin is a major inhibitor of gonadal function
in men, men with higher body fat levels require larger doses of HCG
to get the same effect.

Body Fat Percentage

<10%: 250-300 iu twice weekly
10-15%: 300-350 iu twice weekly
>15%: 350-500 iu twice weekly

5) Do the math to determine the volume you need for your desired
dose. 1 cc = 1,000 iu, so 0.5 cc = 500 iu, 0.25 cc = 250 iu etc.

6) Use an insulin syringe (29 gauge is ideal) to measure your dose
and inject subcutaneously one inch to either side of your belly
button.

If testicular atrophy begins to occur on your selected dose, simply
raise yourself to the next bracket. It is better to not use more
than you need if you plan to come off cycle eventually. Minor
atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy.

I generally recommend that you have Tamoxifen Citrate (aka Nolva)
or Raloxifene Hydrochloride (aka Evista) available in case you
develop signs of gynecomastia."

[^mR.]

Interesting stuff Cookie i think i might try this on my next Cycle. Although i'm probably going to stick SHIC cycles from now on. But still i think theres alot think about and try.

Great stuff

[lafbear]

Very good article. I know some cyclists who use an HCG only cycle during racing season, AAS early in the off-season training so most of it clears before the season starts.

One other point that I've made before: HCG must be refrigerated continually even BEFORE reconstitution...so the HCG you get from sources that can't ship refrigerated is not as effective as it should be, if it has any effects at all. These instructions come from the manufacturer...so I would tend to believe them to be correct.

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by ^mR.

Interesting stuff Cookie i think i might try this on my next Cycle. Although i'm probably going to stick SHIC cycles from now on. But still i think theres alot think about and try.

Great stuff

This protocol should be run w/SHICs as well as longer cycles. Shut down starts almost immediately when using AAS and this helps countermand that effect. It might even reduce the time off between cycles b/c it promotes quicker return to normal test production in the body.

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by lafbear

Very good article. I know some cyclists who use an HCG only cycle during racing season, AAS early in the off-season training so most of it clears before the season starts.

One other point that I've made before: HCG must be refrigerated continually even BEFORE reconstitution...so the HCG you get from sources that can't ship refrigerated is not as effective as it should be, if it has any effects at all. These instructions come from the manufacturer...so I would tend to believe them to be correct.

Bump lafbear, this isn't usually mentioned in the literature and threads I've read.

[alaski]

Haha...good one cookie knowing some of us, and maybe me, are sometimes a little impatient waiting for the punch-line, meaning just tell me what I am suppose to do like the doctor does...lol. Great read however...

Nice post cookie been talking to some of guys about hcg during my coming up cycle and this really helps thanks brother

[cookiedough]

Originally Posted by alaski

Haha...good one cookie knowing some of us, and maybe me, are sometimes a little impatient waiting for the punch-line, meaning just tell me what I am suppose to do like the doctor does...lol. Great read however...

I'm all about the punch line

Originally Posted by jeff1985

Nice post cookie been talking to some of guys about hcg during my coming up cycle and this really helps thanks brother

No worries, except I keep finding conflicting information regarding HCG use. I'm sticking w/this protocol and I'll assess it's effectiveness then. Ultimately, we're all just guinea pigs anyway.

[Chal]

U da man CD! I'm right wit ya on the hcg brother. I won't run w/o it on hand.
It's such an amazing substance and just about everything about it is nothing but good. I have read it can affect kidneys adversely though. I will have to research that further. I just found out that older men who have certain malignancies will produce hcg. Apparently it is anti-malignant.

[dieseld]

Wondering if anyone has been using this method. If so has anyone worked out the best method for dosing and how much? Ed, eod e3d weekly? And what pct u guys run since it says u shouldn't run hcg in ur pct. O have NOLVADEX aromasin and hcg on hand. Thanks bros.

[bulk]

HCG:
it should defo be used DURING a cycle:
Some folks think it blocks estrogen,
HCG DOES NOT PREVENT BITCH TITS, AND MAY EVEN BE ONE OF THE REASON FOR GETTING GYNO:

the info on Hcg is correct
congrats to cookie

[bulk]

hey cook:
the info you have here on HCG is correct
Forget the conflicting info, this info here is 100% correct:
I know a pro coach whos made it his business for 30 years training houshold name athletes,both domestic and international, this is the protocol he follows with regards to hcg: there a good reason why this procedure is followed rather than any other , but i wont bore you, ill just say its correct:

[upsman]

Originally Posted by cookiedough

Here's a similar post from another board suggesting similar HCG dosing schedule:

Recommended Dosing

"HCG is best used in small frequent doses throughout the cycle and
not during Post Cycle Therapy. I recommend HCG treatment begin
during the second week of a cycle and end just before PCT starts. (This is the primary difference to the Eric M. Potratz article above)
The dose one needs varies and can be adjusted mid cycle if
necessary. Because leptin is a major inhibitor of gonadal function
in men, men with higher body fat levels require larger doses of HCG
to get the same effect.

Body Fat Percentage

<10%: 250-300 iu twice weekly
10-15%: 300-350 iu twice weekly
>15%: 350-500 iu twice weekly

5) Do the math to determine the volume you need for your desired
dose. 1 cc = 1,000 iu, so 0.5 cc = 500 iu, 0.25 cc = 250 iu etc.

6) Use an insulin syringe (29 gauge is ideal) to measure your dose
and inject subcutaneously one inch to either side of your belly
button.

If testicular atrophy begins to occur on your selected dose, simply
raise yourself to the next bracket. It is better to not use more
than you need if you plan to come off cycle eventually. Minor
atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy.

I generally recommend that you have Tamoxifen Citrate (aka Nolva)
or Raloxifene Hydrochloride (aka Evista) available in case you
develop signs of gynecomastia."

Hey cookie dough. I know this post is old but hopefully I can get your help. Your hcg program makes sense. The way I see it is that it its better to check your tires regularly instead of trying to fix a flat. I have only done deca and tbol, yes not the best it worked well for me, except shutting down hard on the last cycle but looking to do test e400mgw for twelve Weeks with deca 200mgw for ten Weeks withtbol 40Mg Ed for Weeks 2tru8. Not looking for massive gains. What do you recommend for pct.will also try your hcg regimen

[bulk]

Originally Posted by upsman

Hey cookie dough. I know this post is old but hopefully I can get your help. Your hcg program makes sense. The way I see it is that it its better to check your tires regularly instead of trying to fix a flat. I have only done deca and tbol, yes not the best it worked well for me, except shutting down hard on the last cycle but looking to do test e400mgw for twelve Weeks with deca 200mgw for ten Weeks withtbol 40Mg Ed for Weeks 2tru8. Not looking for massive gains. What do you recommend for pct.will also try your hcg regimen

Hi
1) decca@ 200mg per week is not worth doing, because decca will shut you down very quickly at very low dosage, therfore theres no point in getting shut down for the sake of 200mg per week, its just not enough to make any gains in terms of muscle/size/strength. Try a minimum of 400mg per week for 12 weeks, otherwise you will gain nothing and get shut down in the process.

2) run the test @ 500mg, this is a base dosage, Suck up 1cc of test and 1cc of decca in the same syringe, shoot it monday +thursday.

3) Tbol is 17a, if your new to this game, then start your cycle with Tbol as a kick start, while the test+decca pool up, then eventualy kick in.

heres the cycle below ( Assuming the test is "E" or CYP )

weeks 1-12 decca 400mg per week
weeks 1-12 test "E" 500mg
weeks 1-6 tbol @ 35mg

Now thats cleared up you have options for pct.
Keep a Good Ai on hand due to the test and Tbol, they will Aromatize at around week 5, Ai will help knock off the estrogen, only use Hcg on your cycle if needed, as per Cookies instructions.
These 2 precautions will keep estrogen related sides at bay, and keep your balls in check. You may want to introduce Caber, for the Decca, but @ 400mg i wouldnt bother.

Pct, once your cycle finishes, wait a week after your last shot, and Follow the 22day standard pct / nolva/ clomid, wich should be more than good enough to help you bounce back and recover.


Hope this info helps, or maybe 1 of the vets could add something here.
Good luck Bro:

[WetWorks]

Originally Posted by bulk

Hi
1) decca@ 200mg per week is not worth doing, because decca will shut you down very quickly at very low dosage, therfore theres no point in getting shut down for the sake of 200mg per week, its just not enough to make any gains in terms of muscle/size/strength. Try a minimum of 400mg per week for 12 weeks, otherwise you will gain nothing and get shut down in the process.

2) run the test @ 500mg, this is a base dosage, Suck up 1cc of test and 1cc of decca in the same syringe, shoot it monday +thursday.

3) Tbol is 17a, if your new to this game, then start your cycle with Tbol as a kick start, while the test+decca pool up, then eventualy kick in.

heres the cycle below ( Assuming the test is "E" or CYP )

weeks 1-12 decca 400mg per week
weeks 1-12 test "E" 500mg
weeks 1-6 tbol @ 35mg

Now thats cleared up you have options for pct.
Keep a Good Ai on hand due to the test and Tbol, they will Aromatize at around week 5, Ai will help knock off the estrogen, only use Hcg on your cycle if needed, as per Cookies instructions.
These 2 precautions will keep estrogen related sides at bay, and keep your balls in check. You may want to introduce Caber, for the Decca, but @ 400mg i wouldnt bother.

Pct, once your cycle finishes, wait a week after your last shot, and Follow the 22day standard pct / nolva/ clomid, wich should be more than good enough to help you bounce back and recover.


Hope this info helps, or maybe 1 of the vets could add something here.
Good luck Bro:

Bump Bulk

only I would up the dose of Tbol to 60mg pre workout. if it was me.