Is 3 weeks enough for PCT?

[espiros]

Is the 3 week PCT protocol enough? I got this from another board and wanted to get some opinions on this.

The standard PCT everyone mainly suggests is a 4 week cycle of nolvadex therapy of 40/40/20/20 4 weeks long. Sometimes we see a PCT of 5 weeks long mixed with clomid. Sometimes kick starting the clomid at 300mg first day and rest 150/100/50. I have stumbled across a few research studies and a few doctors tests on clomid and nolvadex in men with low testosterone levels. Now these men could have ran cycles and some could just have naturally low testosterone levels, but the fact is they all have low levels much like we all do after a cycle.

The importance of having healthy normal or high levels of testosterone as many of us know is very important. Weather its to have a healthy libido or feel healthy as a man, a big role of pct is keeping our muscle gains. So many young guys claim they are fine after 4 weeks pct just because they have erections like normal. But not alot know it only takes 200ng of testosterone in a male to have erections. The normal range of testosterone for a heathly man is around 200-1000 depending on the doctor. The younger you are the higher testosterone you should have. As we age most of us know our levels decline and we end up in the low range.

It seems to many people don't get bloodwork done these days they just say they recovered fine after a cycle because they started sustaining erections again fully. Yet as I have pointed out above it only takes 200ng testosterone to attain one. And if we are only getting around that range that is going to be very bad for keeping muscle gains. Alot of the younger guys seem to claim they recover fine after a cycle with little to no pct. Yet alot of the older guys hittng 30+ seem to take months to recover and alot are going on HRT everywhere you look. Is this possible because of the such short pct we have been running in our younger years? Sure after a cycle or 2 you will recover fine. But when we start reaching 5 or 7 cycles of 10-20 weeks does that not take a toll on the body with such short pct, even more so with age!

Here is a study to read of men of all age's from 18-59 along with 40-70. I will point out some of the main facts in this writing.
General patient population
In the Center for Sexual Function, 990 men who presented with sexual dysfunction during a 2-y period were evaluated with retrospective chart review. The clinical characteristics and medical risk factors of the population were previously reported.25 All men had testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels monitored, and 58 men (5.8%) had hypergonadotropic hypogonadism (primary gonadal failure), while 302 men (30.5%) had hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (ie, low testosterone and inappropriately low or normal luteinizing hormone levels). Of these 302 men, 272 (90.7%) had ED as part of their presenting complaint, defined as the inability to achieve or maintain an erection long enough to complete sexual intercourse satisfactorily in more than 50% of attempts.
"Treatment with clomiphene citrate
Of the 272 men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and ED, 228 (83.8%) completed a 4-month course of clomiphene citrate, 50 mg orally on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Most of these men were married in a stable heterosexual relationship; the single men were in a steady relationship for at least 6 months. A home log was kept in which the couple recorded the number of sexual attempts and successes at intercourse. A successful response was defined as the ability to complete intercourse in more than 75% of attempts; a partial response was defined as successful intercourse in from 50 to 75% of attempts. The men who failed did not notice any change in their sexual activity. No men reported side effects caused by clomiphene citrate."
"Hormone testing
Of the 228 men who began taking clomiphene, 173 (75.9%) men completed the 4-month course of treatment and had similar blood tests performed in the same laboratory, the Central Laboratory of Lahey Clinic. This population was the basis of the present study. Serum luteinizing hormone and free testosterone levels were drawn between 08:00 and 12:00. Of these 173 men with low baseline testosterone levels, 116 (or 67.1%) had two or more low pretreatment testosterone levels measured 1–3 months apart, which ruled out the possibility of random fluctuations or laboratory error."
"Univariate analyses
The mean age of the 173 men was 54.3 y. A total of 84 men (48.6%) were under age 55 y (mean, 45.2 y), and 89 men (51.4%) were 56 y or older (mean, 62.1 y).
Figure 1 shows the response rate of the group as a whole. In all, 67 men (38.7%) had a positive response with a regular intercourse completion rate (>75%), 63 men (36.4%) had a partial response with an intercourse completion rate of 50–75%, and 43 men (24.8%) reported no change. Therefore, 75.1% noticed improvement in ED, with 38.7% returning to normal sexual function."
"Figure 2 and Figure 3 show that despite a disparity in clinical response, clomiphene stimulation significantly raised the blood levels of both luteinizing hormone and free testosterone in all groups. The serum luteinizing hormone level rose in the responders from 3.3 to 7.7 IU/l (P<0.001), from 4.2 to 7.7 IU/l (P<0.001 in the partial responders), and from 4.4 to 8.5 IU/l (P<0.001) in the nonresponders. The serum-free testosterone levels rose from 9.3 to 21.2 pg/ml in the responders, from 9.2 to 18.0 pg/ml in the partial responders, and from 9.8 to 17.6 pg/ml in the nonresponders (all significant where P<0.001)."
"Our data showed that clomiphene citrate can successfully stimulate the hypothalamus to cause increased testicular testosterone production. Stimulation with 50 mg of oral clomiphene three times weekly may be diagnostic as well as therapeutic. If the patient does not respond with at least a 75% increase in testosterone and a 100% increase in luteinizing hormone, further evaluation of the hypothalamic–pituitary area is warranted."
"Clomiphene stimulation did not elevate the testosterone level out of the normal range, but it remained in the middle of the normal range. Stimulation for 4 months produced levels similar to those in our previous study when the levels were measured after 2 months."
http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v.../3900981a.html

This study makes me think that a PCT of nolvadex and clomid as doctors suggested would be best ran at a protocol of 50mg clomid every other day and 20mg nolvadex everyday for a period of 2 months minium and best results around the 4 to 6 month line. As the studies indicate that results are still happening into the 4th month of clomd therapy.

Some steroid users think that nolvadex and clomid have really harsh side effects, while some of that is true from what I have found most side effects occur in a couple percent of users. Any takes on this?

[davidbl769]

great post espiros!

[espiros]

Originally Posted by davidbl769

great post espiros!

Thanks...
I personally think that more than 3 weeks are need it to recover at least it seems that to me....I will say that it does take somewhere along 6 to 7 weeks therefore my next PCT will be at least 5 weeks long.

[davidbl769]

if any thing i think a longer pct would benefit some of us older guys. what could it hurt if you went a little longer. i know after i did my last bulk cycle,after the 22 day pct i kept almost all my gains,but it took a few more wks for my testosterone levels to be were i thought they should be.

[espiros]

Originally Posted by davidbl769

if any thing i think a longer pct would benefit some of us older guys. what could it hurt if you went a little longer. i know after i did my last bulk cycle,after the 22 day pct i kept almost all my gains,but it took a few more wks for my testosterone levels to be were i thought they should be.

Exactly, it does seems to me that a longer PCT will be beneficial even more for us older guys...
And would it make our wifes happier as well!

[davidbl769]

i start 10 wk bulk cycle april. i am going to do a longer pct. i'll be the ginny pig.

[espiros]

Originally Posted by davidbl769

i start 10 wk bulk cycle april. i am going to do a longer pct. i'll be the ginny pig.

Humanity should pay us for been so unselfish and became guinea pigs often!!

[Action]

Good article...It can never hurt to do a longer PCT...

[signal22]

Originally Posted by Action

Good article...It can never hurt to do a longer PCT...

I agree as the best PCT is always time...

[hooligan2004]

yea pct is important great post espiros but i have found that it is hard for me to use clomid since i get suicidal depression from it and i have hard that really only happens to a few... just my experience....anyone think what else you could use in a PCTbesides clomid?

[davidbl769]

Originally Posted by hooligan2004

yea pct is important great post espiros but i have found that it is hard for me to use clomid since i get suicidal depression from it and i have hard that really only happens to a few... just my experience....anyone think what else you could use in a PCTbesides clomid?

BRO, I WILL NEVER USE CLOMID AGAIN. BAD DEPRESSION!

[espiros]

Originally Posted by hooligan2004

yea pct is important great post espiros but i have found that it is hard for me to use clomid since i get suicidal depression from it and i have hard that really only happens to a few... just my experience....anyone think what else you could use in a PCTbesides clomid?

Hooligan you could try with aromasin, is been say that is even better for some than clomid.....I haven't tried my self yet, but probably will.

[Rex Kwon Do]

what if you ran a 10 week cycle then...an extra long pct like 10 weeks fallowing. just to keep test at a spike..or is this crazy talk?

[espiros]

Originally Posted by Rex Kwon Do

what if you ran a 10 week cycle then...an extra long pct like 10 weeks fallowing. just to keep test at a spike..or is this crazy talk?

It's not need it....If you want to get your system to produce more test include some Tribulus in your PCT and in between cycles.
I don't think that clomid will make you produce more test and novaldex will lower your estrogen (not a good think) since a balance is need it.