PCT - Make it simple.

[Hanoverfist]

In real simple terms, what is the best and easiest PCT compounds to use and for how long.

I am 40. Do i need to have a longer PCT?

Will just Nolv work? 20mg/day for a month? Should i add something on top of Nolv?

I always screw this up it seems because i have a tendency to have big losses after prior cycles.


Thanks in advance!

[Pack11]

I would do one of the following two or something similar

PCT 1
week 1-2
Aromasin 25 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

Week 3
aromasis 12.5 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

week 4
Nolvadex 20 mg eod

PCT 2
week 1
Clomid 200 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

week 2
Clomid 150 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

Week 3
Clomid 100 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

week 4
Clomid 50 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

[Hanoverfist]

I have read conflicting articles regarding using clomid and nolv or just Nolv. Why both? The objective is simply to boost your natural test production back to normal as quickly as possible...the Nolv and Clomid work by knocking out the Estrogen correct?

I am not trying to argue, I am trying to understand this.

Thanks for that outline, it makes things easy.

You a Packers Fan?

[prime]

nolva and clomid do not knock out estro. They compete with the estro. they are antagonists.

inhibitors(like letro, adex, aromasin) knock out estro.

i.e. If you have a gyno flare up and need immediate results, nolva woud be in order to compete with the estro at the breast tissue level. an ai might take a week or longer to get the estro under control.

now i haven't really researched what mechanism in nolva and clomid would cause a suppressed testosterone to kick back up but I think nolva and clomid are very similar except nolva is more powerful milligram wise.

edited to add this link: http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/...-works-in-men/

it appears that clomid and nolva act on the pituatary the same way as they do at the breast. they bind to an estrogen receptor so estrogen cannot bind and thus fools the pituatary to continue to produce LH. excess estrogen tells the pituary to stop making testosterone since some testosterone is always converted to estrogen for the feedback loop.

[Replicator]

Originally Posted by Hanoverfist

In real simple terms, what is the best and easiest PCT compounds to use and for how long.

I am 40. Do i need to have a longer PCT?

Will just Nolv work? 20mg/day for a month? Should i add something on top of Nolv?

I always screw this up it seems because i have a tendency to have big losses after prior cycles.


Thanks in advance!

have a read o this m8

Stupid People's Guide to Post Cycle Therapy
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:

Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a PCT plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.

2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)

3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):

Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):

Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Toremifene:

Reputation: Very popular
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Raloxifene:

Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

[neoconjerk]

Originally Posted by Replicator

have a read o this m8

Stupid People's Guide to Post Cycle Therapy
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:

Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a PCT plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.

2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)

3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):

Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):

Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Toremifene:

Reputation: Very popular
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Raloxifene:

Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

Rep, is it a bad idea to use aromasin in PCT since it blocks estrogen?

[Pack11]

Originally Posted by neoconjerk

Rep, is it a bad idea to use aromasin in PCT since it blocks estrogen?

cappy told me it would be just as good to run aromasin as it would to run clomid...(even though they are different)

so my plan this time is aromasin and nolva with hcg in the last couple weeks of cycle.

[neoconjerk]

Originally Posted by Pack11

cappy told me it would be just as good to run aromasin as it would to run clomid...(even though they are different)

so my plan this time is aromasin and nolva with hcg in the last couple weeks of cycle.

I was wondering if nolva was good to run on-cycle when HCG is being used as well. I read somewhere that the nolva prevents some part of the HTPA axis from being desensitized. I had heard that running aromasin on-cycle can hinder gains. I don't mind giving up some of my gains *IF* it means a smoother recovery.

Anyone have any additional insight on this?

[Pack11]

just pmed you this.. but it would be good here too

bottom line is estrogen spikes after a cycle is over, you don't want that estrogen to make you soft and ruin your muscles. Plus if your body knows there is estrogen it wont start producing test cause it is scared the test will convert to more estrogen. So you either need to hide the estrogen with a serm or kill the estrogen with an AI. If you kill too much you will have yet another estrogen spike after you stop the AI so that is bad too... hope that helps.

But the question you just asked I do not really have an answer for...

[neoconjerk]

Originally Posted by Pack11

just pmed you this.. but it would be good here too

bottom line is estrogen spikes after a cycle is over, you don't want that estrogen to make you soft and ruin your muscles. Plus if your body knows there is estrogen it wont start producing test cause it is scared the test will convert to more estrogen. So you either need to hide the estrogen with a serm or kill the estrogen with an AI. If you kill too much you will have yet another estrogen spike after you stop the AI so that is bad too... hope that helps.

But the question you just asked I do not really have an answer for...

Thanks for all the info.

Enjoy watching Ohio State getting heads handed to them later. LOL

[neoconjerk]

"...getting THEIR heads handed to them..."

[Replicator]

I see you have the answers NEO

[Hanoverfist]

Awesome info guys! Thats exactly the answers i was looking for.

I'm going to drink a beer to celebrate the SW Think-tank. Cheers!

[SpaDude]

Originally Posted by Pack11

I would do one of the following two or something similar

PCT 1
week 1-2
Aromasin 25 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

Week 3
aromasis 12.5 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

week 4
Nolvadex 20 mg eod

PCT 2
week 1
Clomid 200 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

week 2
Clomid 150 mg ed
Nolvadex 40 mg ed

Week 3
Clomid 100 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

week 4
Clomid 50 mg ed
Nolvadex 20 mg ed

So Pack, is this the PCT you follow? No HCG necessary or is that dependent on the cycle you are coming off of?

[Pack11]

both of those would work.

HCG isn't supposed to be that great for PCT, it is better to run during a cycle than after. all of the HCG should be out of your system before you start pct cause it shuts you down in a sense as well.

People will tell you its only needed for long cycles. But I have never done a cycle longer than 8 weeks.

Gotta find what works best for you.

I am going to run PCT 1 listed above this time around. I ran PCT 2 for my first cycle, and I purely aromisin for my second cycles pct (because my hcg was fake lol)

All worked good

[SpaDude]

I like PCT 1 and have read some pretty positive things about using nolvadex and aromasin together. Thanks, this is some great info. Beats Anthony Roberts PCT cycle where he has you sticking yourself with 500iu of HCG for 21 days.

[cappybye]

Don't be too quick to discount AR PCT. Personnally I don't think it works too well for me, but it certainly does for lots of guys. This is the same idea, only the Aromasin is reduced because the HCG isn't included. If you've done a very long cycle AR PCT may be the best bet.

It's true that the HCG does keep your natural LH shut down, so at week 4-5 during AR PCT you're actually shut down again while waiting for things to fire up again.