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Old 04-20-2009, 01:23 PM
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Default Winstrol..Oral vs Injectable

Ok guys what are your opinions on oral winstrol vs injectable?? The info ive gathered is that the injectable is far superior to the oral in terms of nitrogen retention. Ive personally never used either but would like to know from users personal experience of both of them what their opinions were.

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Old 04-20-2009, 03:30 PM
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injectable anything is always going to be better than an oral .
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:40 PM
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Both have their pros and cons. Ill look for the link I came across awile back but its pretty informative. I have read more than once injecting vs oral isnt much different with winstrol as far as the liver goes, for whatever reason.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:42 PM
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http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...injectable.htm
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by b-real View Post
Both have their pros and cons. Ill look for the link I came across awile back but its pretty informative. I have read more than once injecting vs oral isnt much different with winstrol as far as the liver goes, for whatever reason.
Ive read the same thing somewhere about the winny
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by megaman85 View Post
Ok guys what are your opinions on oral winstrol vs injectable?? The info ive gathered is that the injectable is far superior to the oral in terms of nitrogen retention. Ive personally never used either but would like to know from users personal experience of both of them what their opinions were.
I've used both and honestly, nothing comes close to the injectable version. Less sides, easier on the system, superior results. Orals are convenient but you lose some of the quality gains with orals than if you were to inject.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by b-real View Post
I have read more than once injecting vs oral isnt much different with winstrol as far as the liver goes, for whatever reason.
If I read that, I wouldn't be placing too much truth into it.

The oral version is much harsher on the system. Consider the fact that it has to be processed twice by the liver. That's why it's 17 alpha-alkylated like many other orals so that it can survive the first pass through the liver, unlike an injectable which requires that it be processed only once by the liver.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by megaman85 View Post
The info ive gathered is that the injectable is far superior to the oral in terms of nitrogen retention..
Yes, very true.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Action View Post
If I read that, I wouldn't be placing too much truth into it.

The oral version is much harsher on the system. Consider the fact that it has to be processed twice by the liver. That's why it's 17 alpha-alkylated like many other orals so that it can survive the first pass through the liver, unlike an injectable which requires that it be processed only once by the liver.
by Anthony Roberts
Author of Anabolic Steroids: Ultimate Research Guide and Beyond Steroids; Co-Author with Christian Thibaudeau of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Body Transformation From Both Sides of the Force

Anthony Roberts has been researching anabolic steroids for over a decade. He recently began formulating dietary supplements for bodybuilder. The first is MyoGenX - a natural testosterone booster developed by world famous steroid guru Anthony Roberts. MyoGenX contains a three pronged attack scientifically proven to increase your testosterone levels - which will in turn increase your lean muscle mass, boost your strength, and burn your fat!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Publication Date: June, 2006

Discussion of pharmaceutical agents below is presented for information only. Nothing here is meant to take the place of advice from a licensed health care practitioner. Consult a physician before taking any medication.

I tend to shy away from straight “information” articles- in other words, I’ve never written the “How Androgens Work” article, because I’ve read it several times by several authors, and I really have nothing to add. Gene Transcription and Androgen Receptor Action has been written about over, and over, ad nauseum. All of the articles I’ve read on the topic are well written and well- they’re all the same. Don’t get me wrong, all of the articles which discuss the topic are very informative, but when you’re done reading them, you don’t really have anything you can “use” in your next cycle.

And I’m sure you know the difference between orals and injectables, but do yourself a favor and read this article, because I’m going to explain some things in here that you can use in your next cycle. Actually, I’m going to explain how you can use Winstrol (Stanozolol) as either an oral or injectable, and get a very different set of effects from the same drug- depending on which route of administration you choose to utilize.

First, lets go over the basics of Winstrol, so we’re all on the same page here.

Winstrol is a steroid derived from the base structure of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is just testosterone which has been 5alpha-reduced, meaning it has had the c4-5 double bond removed by two hydrogen atoms. This is very interesting from a chemical/biological standpoint. Once this bond is removed, testosterone has become DHT, and DHT is the body’s most potent androgen. DHT has a slew of beneficial effects which are more pronounced than the hormone it’s created out of. DHT is able to increase androgen receptor proliferation for almost 24 full hours (1) DHT also has profound effects on the Central Nervous System (CNS), and this is why we often see profoundly increased aggression with athletes who are using DHT derivatives such as Masteron (which has a deceivingly low anabolic and androgenic rating). As an added benefit, DHT can not aromatize (convert via the aromatase enzyme) into estrogen. It’s also noteworthy that the injectable version of Winstrol is actually the same exact thing as the oral- it’s just micronized Stanozolol powder suspended in water (or sometimes oil).

So what we have in Winstrol is DHT with two modifications- an added c17 methylation, and a very weird “pyrazol” group. The c17 methylation has been added in order to allow Winstrol to survive oral ingestion and the subsequent first pass through the liver. The pyrazol group is a bit weirder- what this means to you and I is that it has another whole “ring” attached to the four ring Steran Nucleus of DHT. Take a look over at the lower left portion of the two molecules below, and you’ll notice that Winstrol has an added cyclopentane (5 sided) group (the pyrazol group):


DHT Winstrol

When we really take a look at Winstrol, the anabolic rating of this product is very high (320% that of testosterone) as compared to its androgenic actions (30% of testosterone). Despite this, Winstrol is really a disappointing drug for size gains. What we typically see with this stuff is some pretty decent strength gains and some nice fat loss if the user isn’t too sloppy with their diet. Not many people report huge weight gains off of Stanozolol. Although many drugs which bind tightly to the androgen receptor are suspected to exhibit their at least some of their lipolytic (fat-burning) effects through receptor binding affinity. The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells.(2), Winstrol remains a potent cutting drug, despite the fact that it has a relatively weak AR binding ability (3). What this tells me is that there’s some stuff going on with regards to Winstrol’s mechanism of action, which doesn’t involve androgen receptor mediated effects. Still, Winstrol is a very potent compound for enhancing protein synthesis (4-5 ) .

As previously discussed, it’s derived from DHT, and DHT is known to have ant-estrogenic effects (6) and Winstrol itself also has anti-progestenic properties (in at least some cases, where it may "block" that receptor) (7). So I think it’s safe to say that some of the “hard” look you can get in your physique from Winstrol is because of it’s ability to inhibit estrogen and progesterone- known culprits in making a physique appear smooth. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the “first pass” through the liver. The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though it’s technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This “first pass” can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your body’s bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.

First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. It’s important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your body’s filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.

So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as “second-pass” metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think there’s some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on it’s first pass before ending up in circulation.

Now, here’s the interesting part: When you inject Winstrol, instead of taking it orally, you actually get more nitrogen retention (4) (and hence we can infer, more new muscle tissue is being built). SO if you are trying to use Winstrol to build new muscle tissue, the injectable version is going to be far superior to the Oral version. However, there are some advantages that the oral version has over the injectable, including a possible “synergy” with other drugs- but only (primarily) when taken orally.

While in the liver, on it’s first pass, Winstrol is exposed to a variety of enzymes and proteins. To understand how a possible synergy between Winstrol and other steroids may be possible, a little background on Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) is first necessary. For our purposes here, all we need to know is that SHBG is a glycoprotein produced in the liver, which binds to testosterone and makes it biologically unavailable to do all the things we want it to do- like building muscle. It serves to transport testosterone throughout the body, but while it remains bound to testosterone, the testosterone can not exert it’s anabolic effects.





As you can surmise, a very large portion of the testosterone in your body is bound to SHBG. Wouldn’t it be great if we could lower SHBG? With Winstrol we can.

A fairly conservative oral dose of .2mg/kg of Winstrol has been shown to lower SHBG by close to 50%. (8)For me (200lbs) this would mean I would only need around 18mgs/day to free up half of my SHBG bound testosterone! For my omnipresent and hypothetical “100kg bodybuilder”- only 20mgs would be needed (he’s 220 lbs for the metrically impaired among us). Now, with less SHBG floating around in me, my anabolic steroid cycle will be more effective, right? Right.

But why can we only expect such a dramatic lowering of SHBG with the oral? Well, obviously, we’re taking advantage of the first pass through the liver, where we can have our Winstrol interact with SHBG where it’s produced- in the liver…without going through the bloodstream first.

When we take a look at a study done comparing injectable vs. oral contraceptives, we find that the oral version at 70mgs/week (10mgs/day given orally) is more effective at affecting SHBG levels than 400mgs/week given via an injection! (9)In this study, testosterone undecanoate was given at a constant dose along with norestisterone (which raises SHBG). What we see is that when norestisterone is given orally, it produces a far greater effect on SHBG, than when it is administered via an injection. And this is even when the doses of the injectable are 4x higher!

Here’s a chart, illustrating exactly what I’m talking about in this study, which I think suggests very strongly that injectable versions of drugs, when compared with the oral version, will have nowhere near as much of an effect on SHBG:



Group I (Black Circles): Injections of 200 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 plus injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 2, 6, 12, and 18 (T free window). Group II (White Diamonds): Injections of 1000 mg TU together with 400 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18. Group III (Grey Squares): Injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 combined with daily oral 10 mg norethisterone acetate (NETE) from week 0 to 24 (9)

Of course, in this study, they’re looking at oral vs. injectable versions of a SHBG raising drug- but what we can take away from it is that SHBG interaction with oral compounds is far more pronounced than it is with injectables.

So lets take a small amount of Winstrol with our cycles, and free up some of those steroids we’re taking, right? Right!

Unless of course, we’re talking about women here…I was recently asked why I recommend that women use the injectable version of Winstrol over the oral. I was asked this question by someone, who I assumed had a female friend who was considering using Winstrol. I then realized I was totally incorrect- not about Winstrol, but about the reason behind the question. You see…I saw a picture of the man who had first asked me the question, and it’s readily apparent to me that he probably doesn’t actually know any women. But still, his question is valid and bears repeating and answering here.

I recommend that women avoid the oral version of this product for the same reason that men will find that it gives them an increased synergy and effectiveness in their cycles.

When SHBG is lowered in women, there is more free testosterone floating around. And as we’ve seen, the oral is going to affect SHBG exponentially more than the injectable will. When we lower SHBG too much in women, we see a strong positive correlation with hyperandrogenism (10 ), and hirsuitism (abnormal growth of body hair), as well In fact, non-SHBG-bound testosterone may actually be the defining characteristic for identifying hyperandrogenism in women. In addition, low SHBG contributes to menstrual irregularity.(11)

Finally, and (partially) anecdotally, we also see a greater incidence of clitoral enlargement and acne when the oral version of Winstrol is used by women instead of the injectable. The reasons for this are obvious- When we increase free testosterone by lowering SHBG, we increase the amount of testosterone which is able to be 5a-reduced to DHT. DHT is the primary culprit for steroid induced acne, and is also the hormone responsible for external genital enlargement. Clearly, this is why we see the increased level of clitoral hypertrophy as well as acne when oral Winstrol is used by women.

We can also see increased acne when men use Winstrol orally, but these effects are relatively minor when a 2mg/kg dose is being used to increase the effectiveness of other steroids in a cycle. This isn’t carte blanche to go using Winstrol for an extended period of time under the excuse that it’s increasing the overall effectiveness of the cycle. Stanozolol has some of the worst liver toxicity (hepatoxicity) of any oral steroid on a mg for mg basis. In addition, it’s deleterious effects on your lipid profile (Cholesterol) are also very pronounced, even at low doses- 6mgs/day of Stanozolol can lower HDL (good cholesterol)by 33% and raise LDL (bad cholesterol) by 29% (12 ).

So, hopefully, you’ve reached the end of this article and realized that Winstrol can be used in any cycle to increase the effectiveness of it, but that it must be used sparingly due to it’s possible hepatoxicity and lipid profile effecting properties. Still, when used in heavy testosterone-based profiles, at a dose that will cut your SHBG levels in half, it can increase you other steroids effectiveness quite a bit…but when maximal protein synthesis is wanted, you need to inject it.

There you go…the differences between oral and injectable Winstrol, and how you can use either form to maximize your gains! And yes, Lyle, you can drink Winny.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Action View Post
If I read that, I wouldn't be placing too much truth into it.

The oral version is much harsher on the system. Consider the fact that it has to be processed twice by the liver. That's why it's 17 alpha-alkylated like many other orals so that it can survive the first pass through the liver, unlike an injectable which requires that it be processed only once by the liver.
If you read this article from AR he explains in depth why injectable winstrol is the only exception to the 1st pass/2nd pass process and that injectable winstrol is actually worse on the liver and oral has quite a few positive properties that injecting doesnt.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:05 PM
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Great info..now i know why i respond better 2 oral than the injectable. I saw a large difference in my last 2 cycles.
1) 100mg eod propionate, 50mg day winnie(inj), 4ius hgh day

2) 100mg eod propionate, 50-100mg winnie(oral) 4ius hgh t3/t4 combo 40mcgday


2 cycle stripped off the fat I lost 15# but everyone at gym tjought i had gained weight. Best cycle i ever took
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by b-real View Post
If you read this article from AR he explains in depth why injectable winstrol is the only exception to the 1st pass/2nd pass process and that injectable winstrol is actually worse on the liver and oral has quite a few positive properties that injecting doesnt
Good article B, but if you read it more in depth you see that the oral is actually creating more stress than the injectable:


Quote:
Originally Posted by b-real View Post
The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though it’s technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This “first pass” can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your body’s bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.

First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. It’s important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your body’s filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.
So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as “second-pass” metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think there’s some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on it’s first pass before ending up in circulation.
Injectable Winny goes right into the blood and makes only one pass. Oral creates more extensive work and goes through 2 passes.

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Originally Posted by b-real View Post
Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the “first pass” through the liver.
This is the only part I don't understand in the article. It's almost like a contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-real View Post
Now, here’s the interesting part: When you inject Winstrol, instead of taking it orally, you actually get more nitrogen retention (4) (and hence we can infer, more new muscle tissue is being built). SO if you are trying to use Winstrol to build new muscle tissue, the injectable version is going to be far superior to the Oral version. However, there are some advantages that the oral version has over the injectable, including a possible “synergy” with other drugs- but only (primarily) when taken orally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b-real View Post
A fairly conservative oral dose of .2mg/kg of Winstrol has been shown to lower SHBG by close to 50%.
I acknowledge that there are obvious differences between the oral and injectable version. As for me, the injectable version has been far better in terms of results than the oral.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:03 AM
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Orals!!
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:47 AM
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The problem I see with orals vs. injectables is that a lot of people don't really care which one is better in terms of results, it's the frequent injections, pain and swelling and clogging that comes with the injections. Therefore, they would easily choose the orals over the injectables for it's convenience.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:08 PM
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:38 PM
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i read this article again and Im curious if administering both injectable and oral during a cycle would be that bad. How about injecting 50mg/ed and taking say 15-20mg orally just to free up test by decreasing SHBG. The injectable would bypass 1st pass and only a small amount would be going through 1st pass from the oral version. So theoretically it wouldnt be as bad on the liver as injecting higher doses or even taking higher doses orally and you would be getting lowered SHBG while at the same time getting the injectable benefits.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:07 PM
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Hmmm, very interesting opinion indeed and am sure that it's been tried before. Would definitely be worth a try and can't really see anything negative about it. You're getting Winny from both sides.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:11 AM
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that sounds like it could possibly be a good outcome
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